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Oct 27, 2017
2,732
The Empire has much larger ships, and even though they refer to their hyperspace travel as light speed, they can travel an entire galaxy which means their ships are much faster. They have Force wielders on their side and an almost endless amount of Storm Troopers. However they still have to move them or land on planets by conventional means, where as the Starfleet can transport thousands of troops almost anywhere, which would come in handy if they need to board a Star Destroyer to capture it. Phasers are much more versatile than blasters, and Starfleet even developed it's own cloaking technology in secret to compete with the Romulans. Not to mention, they can hide in a star thanks to a Ferengi scientist and his Metaphasic shield development. Of course the Death Star or another superweapon could play a role and wipe out entire Federation worlds, and a Federation fleet would be hard pressed to destroy something so immense, but again, they could utilize transporters to capture it, or transport over a bomb. Imagine the Defiant strafing a Star Destroyer, or Enterprise-E shooting Quantum torpedoes down the thermal exhaust port of the Death Star. :)

EDIT:
TNG Era
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
5,325
What time frame are you thinking? There could be enough sci fi magic in the 31st (or is it 32nd?) Of discovery to handle anything.
 

Typhon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,136
If they have their backs to the wall and take the gloves off with super science, yeah the Federation wins. Star Wars technology hasn't changed much in a millennia, their galaxy is stagnate.
 

hordak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,552
Anaheim, CA
i think proton torpedoes and phasers are much stronger than turbo lasers. Also why doesn't the federation just teleport high yield nukes right next to an enemy ship or base and blow them up?
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
If they have their backs to the wall and take the gloves off with super science, yeah the Federation wins. Star Wars technology hasn't changed much in a millennia, their galaxy is stagnate.
The Galaxy is stagnate because they reached peak technology essentially to where now all they do is iterate on it.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Federation would lose pretty fast due to just sheer numbers. The Federation at peak wartime was lucky to have like 500 ships and that's bringing back a lot of older ones refit etc. if the Empire somehow found a way to invade the milky Way they could potentially bring thousands of ships and then their command ships etc.
 

Matrix Monkey

Member
Dec 30, 2017
569
I won this argument with a friend a number of years ago by saying Star Trek has controllable time travel and Star Wars does not. The World Between Worlds kind of ruins things now, but I still say Star Trek.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,219
Star Trek technology generally clowns Star Wars. Photon torpedoes travel at warp speed and can be fired while Federation ships are traveling at warp speed. Star Wars ships would never even know what hit them. The Empire's only advantage is sheer numbers, but I don't really see the Enterprise struggling versus even dozens of star destroyers.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
There's an episode if TNG where they openly mock old fashioned laser weapons.

Even if the empire has greater numbers, their shields are weak, their laser ineffective. If Luke Skywalker can blow up the Death Star then you can bet the federation can, too.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Federation would lose pretty fast due to just sheer numbers. The Federation at peak wartime was lucky to have like 500 ships and that's bringing back a lot of older ones refit etc. if the Empire somehow found a way to invade the milky Way they could potentially bring thousands of ships and then their command ships etc.

This actually sounds like the absolute worst match up considering the track records of both sides in this type of set up. The Empire throwing tons of firepower at seemingly outmatched enemies doesn't really go so well for them in big battles. Rag tag groups of poorly equipped people from all walks of life cause them all kinds of grief time and again and if there is one thing the Federation is known for its facing seemingly insurmountable odds against a far superior enemy force and defeating them despite their disadvantages.

Sidious appears in the alpha quadrant with 10,000 planet killing star destroyers only for Picard to show up in a damaged USS Enterprise with some experimental weapon that Q helped him get ahold of after going through some convoluted scheme of his that renders the Empire's entire armada useless and gives Sidious anal warts in the process.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,082
I love when this topic comes up. Its my favorite thing.

The galactic empire gets utterly, totally, holy shit wrecked against the Federation and this is not close at all.

Federation ships are much, much faster in actual combat.

Federation ships have weaponry that is order of magnitudes more powerful.

Federation ships can teleport the entire crew of a star destroyer into deep space in seconds

Federation ships don't "run out of fuel" from traveling at lightspeed for too long

This is a massacre
 

Dhx

Member
Sep 27, 2019
1,728
This is an argument as old as the internet. According to published tech manuals, the energy level of Star Wars weaponry is comical. Trek tech is orders of magnitudes inferior.
 

Saganator

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,147
Federation would wreck em. Laugh at their primitive lasers as they bounce off the shields.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,256
For me it boils down to 3 battles.

Borg Cube vs Death Star
Enterprise E vs Super Star Destroyer
Uss Defiant vs Millennium Falcon.
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,737
If you want to get super accurate with how their tech works the Federation would technically win since it would be impossible for the Empire to leave whatever star system they invaded from, since there would be no hyperspace routes/lanes mapped out for them in our galaxy and their ships would slam into stuff when trying to go to other star systems. ;)

Disregarding that tech wise it's really hard to say which is better. I know Star Wars (at least Legends) had absurdly high number for how powerful the weapons were but the evidence on screen never really supported weapons being that powerful. If any sort of official vs project was made I'm sure they would be on pretty even levels tech wise for weapons/shields since neither rights holder would allow their side to be decimated in an official project, so I think that's a fair thing to go with. It a strait up fight the Empire would likely win due to their sheer numbers if they were able to invade with all of their forces.

Of course if it was something like the Rebel Alliance plus the Alpha Quadrant powers vs all of the Galactic Empire or all the Alpha Quadrant Powers vs only a small portion of the Empire due to the Empire needing to still fight the Rebel Alliance and maintain their territory the outcome would likely be different.

Federation would lose pretty fast due to just sheer numbers. The Federation at peak wartime was lucky to have like 500 ships and that's bringing back a lot of older ones refit etc. if the Empire somehow found a way to invade the milky Way they could potentially bring thousands of ships and then their command ships etc.

I think the Federation probably had at least a few thousand ships in service during the Dominion War, though I would agree the Empire vastly outnumbers the Federation.
 

Dozer

Member
May 30, 2019
891
Orlando, FL
The Federation had at least a shread of morality that prevented them from turning entire planets into slave camps to build starships.

Empire and it's not even close.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
Legitimate question from someone who does not know Trek or Wars that well:

Can a Star Wars ship even really do anything to a Star Trek ship with shields up?

I ask because "shields" in Star Wars seem like the equivalent of decent ablative armor, but "shields" in Star Trek seem to shrug off astronomical amounts of potential damage.
 

Pandaman

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,710
Even if you gave Trek a massive shielding/weapons advantage, they'd still lose. They don't have enough ships and their ships are too slow. In the EU there was a small time warlord with a fleet of 150 Victory class Star Destroyers who would just jump into a system, glass a planet and jump out. There is nothing the federation could do about this and the alpha sector would be burning before they even knew what happened. There are what, a dozen member worlds that actually matter?
 
Jun 18, 2020
113
If we get into the Incredible Cross Sections, then actually they would. Acclamator-class troop transports, from all the way back in the Clone Wars, had turbolasers rated at 200 gigatons. A shot. That's not even getting into the yield increases an ISD would have per-shot, let alone something like an SSD. And the ICS isn't just yield insanity; they include stuff like having turbolasers that have effective ranges in the light minutes and other insane metrics.

The thing is, nothing like this is ever demonstrated in the movies, and only sometimes in the comics and novels. Soooo, most people tend to ignore it.
 

hordak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,552
Anaheim, CA
Legitimate question from someone who does not know Trek or Wars that well:
Can a Star Wars ship even really do anything to a Star Trek ship with shields up?
well in the last star wars movie, the Emperor had hundreds of Xyston class star destroyers, each with a laser that could destroy a small planet. Too bad they were all destroyed by horrible writing.

A fleet of hundreds of these could do a lot of damage with competent leadership (and writing). Unfortunately the Federations ships are too nimble and powerful.

1000
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,085
If a Force Wielder is leading the Empire, then they probably win, especially someone like Palpatine.

Without a Force Wielder, the Federation wins; their firepower is just way more destructive. Every starship is basically a death star.
 

DarthWoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,671
If you go by the old Legends stuff, Star Wars tech is ridiculous levels of space magic. Sequels seem to have made it far more sensible, at least apart from stuff like Starkiller Base and the Xyston-class Star Destroyers. Back in Legends, there was Base Delta Zero, wherein a few Star Destroyers could supposedly scour the entire surface of a planet in a matter of hours, rendering it all molten slag. Now apparently you need a specialized dreadnought with an enormous cannon to do the equivalent of maybe a moderate-yield nuke after a rapid series of massive shots.
 

Pandaman

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,710
Legitimate question from someone who does not know Trek or Wars that well:

Can a Star Wars ship even really do anything to a Star Trek ship with shields up?

I ask because "shields" in Star Wars seem like the equivalent of decent ablative armor, but "shields" in Star Trek seem to shrug off astronomical amounts of potential damage.
Star wars does have Trek style shields, the most obvious examples from the movies being the planetary generators on Endor and Hoth, both of which were apparently strong enough that orbital bombardment was not a solution.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Federation would lose pretty fast due to just sheer numbers. The Federation at peak wartime was lucky to have like 500 ships and that's bringing back a lot of older ones refit etc. if the Empire somehow found a way to invade the milky Way they could potentially bring thousands of ships and then their command ships etc.
Just going off my own memories of DS9 and the Dominion War…that just can't be correct. Starfleet lost over 100 ships in just one offscreen battle.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,082
If you want to get super accurate with how their tech works the Federation would technically win since it would be impossible for the Empire to leave whatever star system they invaded from, since there would be no hyperspace routes/lanes mapped out for them in our galaxy and their ships would slam into stuff when trying to go to other star systems. ;)

Bingo. SW ships require the use of an astrodroid OR the Force when traveling at hyperspeed to avoid the ship and pilot smashing into planets, asteroids, etc at relativistic speeds. ST ships don't have that problem. Sensors are good enough to travel at warp through uncharted space.

Disregarding that tech wise it's really hard to say which is better.

It aint. Trek ships (generally) have two different ways to attack you- ship mounted phaser banks, and photon torpedoes.

Ship mounted phasers are the successors to a more primitive line of weapons called phaser cannons. Phaser cannons theoretically had higher energy output, but struggled to do damage once deflector shields became commonplace. Phaser arrays are lower output but designed to cut through shields like butter. The phaser banks introduced in TNG as a response to the borg rapidly cycle through frequencies to be even better at it.

Photon torpedoes on the other hand are just straight damage dealers. HOW much damage do they do? We can reference three separate occasions that are fairly definitive. Two of these happen in Ds9 and Discovery, where a volley of standard photon torpedoes *glass a planet* and turn the surface to slag, obliterating all life. To make this even worse, the starship that did this in Discovery was using TOS era technology that predated TNG era weaponry by about 70 years. If you have weaponry as powerful as photon torpedoes (and again, those were standard strength and/or ancient tech) you don't need the death star. it's redundant.

We can also reference the quantum torpedoes that Voyager came back with in the finale THAT series. Voyager straight up *one shot* borg cubes with those, and those things were totally unblockable because they went out of phase with spacetime immediately after launch.

how big is a borg cube?

spaceship-comparison.gif


Insanely big. It's not as *long* as the Executor (which itself was a *super sized* star destroyer) but it's easily just as massive (as it's a cube of equal dimensions on all sides) and totally dwarfs a standard imperial class star destroyer.

Voyager could have ended the Empire (as it stood in Jedi) entirely by itself with the armament it had at the conclusion of that series.
 

DarthWoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,671
well in the last star wars movie, the Emperor had hundreds of Xyston class star destroyers, each with a laser that could destroy a small planet. Too bad they were all destroyed by horrible writing.

A fleet of hundreds of these could do a lot of damage with competent leadership (and writing). Unfortunately the Federations ships are too nimble and powerful.

1000
It's just so obnoxious how obvious it was that they literally copied the Rogue One Imperial-I model and digitally kitbashed a cannon into its hangar and added some stripes. Everything from the bridge windows to the turrets are just 1.5x the size for absolutely no logical reason.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
Star wars does have Trek style shields, the most obvious examples from the movies being the planetary generators on Endor and Hoth, both of which were apparently strong enough that orbital bombardment was not a solution.

The one in Rogue One was admittedly pretty rad.

It seems those have to be constructed planetside for... some reason, though? Not really sure why, at the Death Star's size it seems like it should have been able to support its own. (I'm guessing there's some fancy lore explanation involving shield projection needing to be from the outside of the shielded area to do that or something?)
 

I am a Bird

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,263
From what I recall the numbers in Star Wars were much larger than anything in Star Trek so if it was an imperial army vs just the federation the Empire would most likely win.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
1) Federation has teleporters.
2) Picard knows Doctor Who.
3) Klingons.
4) Data would hack the SHIT outta the Empire's computers in no time.
 

Dhx

Member
Sep 27, 2019
1,728

Am I?


Star Wars: Acclamator troop transport:

Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)

Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)

Sublight acceleration: 3500G

Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)

Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak

Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max

Enterprise D:

Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123). Note that phasers appear to have a chain-reaction effect so their raw power output may be deceptively low.

Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical (based on 1.5 kg antimatter payload, p.129)

Sublight acceleration: 1000G (design goal, p.75)

Operational range: 2750 light-years (7 years at warp 6 before refueling, p.3)

Shield heat dissipation: 3311 GW peak (473 GW per generator x 7 generators, p.138)

Reactor power: ~4 billion GW at max warp 9.6 (scaled from the warp power chart on p.55 which uses units of joules for power; we assume this is a simple mistake). From the chart, their fuel supply for 7 years of warp 6 cruising would be roughly 2E23 J (enough to run an Acclamator's reactor at full power for just 1 second).

Notice that's a damn Troop Transport. The numbers are again, ass-pull comical.

These are published values and this link is very, very old. So if things have changed well, sue me.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,082
If we get into the Incredible Cross Sections, then actually they would. Acclamator-class troop transports, from all the way back in the Clone Wars, had turbolasers rated at 200 gigatons. A shot. That's not even getting into the yield increases an ISD would have per-shot, let alone something like an SSD. And the ICS isn't just yield insanity; they include stuff like having turbolasers that have effective ranges in the light minutes and other insane metrics.

The thing is, nothing like this is ever demonstrated in the movies, and only sometimes in the comics and novels. Soooo, most people tend to ignore it.

See the above explanation. Photon torpedoes have yields measured in *isotons* not Gigatons- Isotons being invented as a measurement for the series because "gigaton" just wasn't powerful enough.

And for the record, even TOS era shields at max power could tank the combined explosion of over *two dozen* photon torpedoes. At once. The TOS era Enterprise even demonstrated this on screen by tanking a point blank blast from the "doomsday machine" that was carving planets into rubble in a single hit without sustaining significant damage.

There is NO weapon in the SW universe outside of the death star itself with the destructive power of the doomsday machine, and the death star is nowhere near fast enough to hit a federation starship. And even if it could? Kirk's Enterprise could survive the blast.


you are.
 

Saturday

One Winged Slayer - Shinra Employee
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,440
I feel like on the whole Feds are more prepped for wartime. Even at it's peak, I feel like Empire is heavily fragmented in terms of quality in part due to internal strife and Papa Palpatine fuckery.

All I do know for sure is that at the height of this proposed conflict, a flagship tricked out with some space-time weapon fuckery on the Federation side is probably met by Darth Vader in a single TIE fighter bc/ Palps sent him to fight alone because Darth Vader's life is miserable
 

Pandaman

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,710
The one in Rogue One was admittedly pretty rad.

It seems those have to be constructed planetside for... some reason, though? Not really sure why, at the Death Star's size it seems like it should have been able to support its own. (I'm guessing there's some fancy lore explanation involving shield projection needing to be from the outside of the shielded area to do that or something?)
plot convenience probably, you get to have your cool ground sequences. Star Wars had shield generators of all sizes and types. Even personal ones, like the ones used by these guys.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
If we get into the Incredible Cross Sections, then actually they would. Acclamator-class troop transports, from all the way back in the Clone Wars, had turbolasers rated at 200 gigatons. A shot. That's not even getting into the yield increases an ISD would have per-shot, let alone something like an SSD. And the ICS isn't just yield insanity; they include stuff like having turbolasers that have effective ranges in the light minutes and other insane metrics.

The thing is, nothing like this is ever demonstrated in the movies, and only sometimes in the comics and novels. Soooo, most people tend to ignore it.
This has actual substance to it. I'm convinced. Star Trek is a liar, sometimes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,658
Arizona
Let me tell you about the Sun Crusher.
If we include the EU, who knows, the Empire might have it.
If you go by the old Legends stuff, Star Wars tech is ridiculous levels of space magic. Sequels seem to have made it far more sensible, at least apart from stuff like Starkiller Base and the Xyston-class Star Destroyers. Back in Legends, there was Base Delta Zero, wherein a few Star Destroyers could supposedly scour the entire surface of a planet in a matter of hours, rendering it all molten slag. Now apparently you need a specialized dreadnought with an enormous cannon to do the equivalent of maybe a moderate-yield nuke after a rapid series of massive shots.
I mean even Starkiller and Xystons are more reigned in than the EU, by a lot. The Sun Crusher was literally a 45-foot-long Starkiller that could survive Death Star blasts. Xyston-class ships aren't even particularly ridiculous in isolation, the ridiculous part was there secretly being a thousand out of no where.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
plot convenience probably, you get to have your cool ground sequences. Star Wars had shield generators of all sizes and types. Even personal ones, like the ones used by these guys.

Yeah, the personal/starfighter based shields are the ones that made me think they're more like ablative armor, since they really only seem to be good for a hit or two before you're left praying to Space Jesus for protection.

I mean I guess the obvious answer is that they exist so that a person/pilot can take a hit to show they're in immediate danger without dying, but to keep that danger feeling appropriately real they can't really take more than one or two hits in any narrative context.