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So last weekend I drove a 2022 ND2 RF (GT, that new quartz color with brown leather). Man. Guys. This thing is so much faster and nicer than my NB it was kind of crazy. It makes me wonder if I'm low on compression or something. The ND2 was actually pulling with two guys in it in every gear. It felt so much quicker, more responsive and more fun. It actually made me feel bad about my NB.
I have an 03 Shinsen in nice shape. Matching HT, FM mid pipe and muffler, FM happy meal clutch, and a few other things. Mostly maintenance like shifter rebuild with brass bushing etc. I had been slowly cleaning the car up and planning to turbo based off the guides here. I'm at that crossing point where if I put any more money into the car for a turbo or other mods, I wont get the money back when I sell it. I really love the car, it fits me like a glove, it's so small and light and mechanical. Of course my GF hates the car and doesn't want to drive further than a quick errand in it with me. And maybe the biggest problem, while I'm fairly mechanically inclined, I don't have a lot of time to tinker with it. So something new and reliable is super tempting.
Anyway. Anyone else experience this? The money isn't really an issue. I can buy a used ND1 or a new ND2 (Based off crazy used prices I'm leaning new). I've heard even a 200whp turbo NB isn't really faster than a stock ND2, and way less reliable. What's keeping you turbo guys with your cars and not moving to an ND? Any recommendations on what you would do in my situation?
Mostly because I am overinvested already. Fell down this rabbit hole long ago, still not finished like I would like it. So the answer is just keep putting more into it until I get it right ,lol. I have never driven an ND2 , but glad to hear it is that good. I am curious why your gf hates the car? My wife would love it if it was stock and not so much like "racecar". And truth is a turbo always cost more than you think and more work as well. Buy the new ND2, then later you can still add power if you want
The way you outline it, it sounds like the ND is the shoe that fits you best. Turbo BP is a pretty big project that can have reliablity issues and is a time investment, especially if you elect not to learn to tune.
Personally, I like drinking beer amd wrenching on stuff in my garage so a project car fits - turbo NA/NB all day for me.
I was dailying my turbo NA . . . to the tune of 261K miles. Then, weird electrical stuff started happening -- old wiring (sigh). One day after getting stranded, I went out and bought a 2020. Now the 2020 gets driven everyday.
Still have the Silver bullet since I have the room. It's still fun to drive. But the ND2 is just as much fun -- feels really similar.
In the back of my mind, I felt like I was rewarding Mazda for creating the Miata and sticking to the formula for 30+ years.
Sounds like you'll have more fun just driving a lightly modded ND2 than going all in on an NB build.
As far as speed goes, there's definitely a gap between an ND and a 200hp NB but it's not huge.
For reference I have a Kswap NB (Was at 182whp during these sessions as it was pre tune to 205whp), a friend has an ND1 RF with a tune, exhaust, xidas, sways, and new 245 rs4s on the stock rims. I have xidas and absolutely destroyed 225 rs4s.
At local track vmax for mine is 108mph, the ND was 100mph. Not a massive difference but it's definitely noticeable. There was a pretty big difference in tire grip but the ND was only 1 second a lap slower than the NB. You make it an ND2 and throw some proper width rims on and I don't doubt they'd be the same.
With the same 245 tires a ton of handling improvements going on mine I expect another 2 seconds to come off of it., but you can still take a lightly modified ND and make it pretty close to a 200whp turbo NB, all while having A/C and a MUCH better street car.
The negative of the ND is that it felt too civilized, going back to the ND from the NB it felt very dull, it does everything really well but it's not nearly as much fun while doing it.
A good RF here is around 35k to buy, I assume thats why more people are staying with what they already have.
If you want a car that's fun to drive, and you don't have to think about or work on periodically, buy the ND. If you want something that's more unique, possibly performs a little better, and has that "I built that" factor; at the cost of requiring more TLC, stick with the NB.
I have not driven an ND2, but I know they're pretty capable. Back when we had our NC3 Club PRHT, we drove an ND1 and were not really impressed. Compared to our NC, which had shocks/springs/sways and decent rubber, the ND felt cramped and floppy. Interior space felt about like our NB... I'm not at all a fan of the RF.... don't like Targas compared to a 'real' convertible/roadster. If you don't care about the whole 'convertible' thing, and it's just a sports car then it doesn't really matter. I know the ND2 is a big improvement over the ND1, but the transmissions are still questionable to me, and it's not going to match a turbo car for acceleration. All that is just nitpicking, 'cause it's still a great car, and a great Miata.
You could put $10k in the NB and still be well short of what it would take to buy the ND2, and that gets you a lot. A rods/pistons engine refresh with a turbo would probably run forever at 240-250hp, and stomp the guts out of a stock ND2. Rising prices on NBs would probably result in getting a good bit of your investment back if the parts and work are of good quality. NBs are ~20 years old at this point, which means more maintenance, but every fix is an opportunity to improve and upgrade. And Miatas are pretty damn reliable to start with. Having a nice, clean older car is always going to be cooler than a stock new car.
As far as your GF, maybe let her drive it? When I brought home our first NA, my wife thought I was crazy. I tossed her the keys, and she came back with an ear to ear smile. She's been driving on the track for almost 10 years now.
I've heard even a 200whp turbo NB isn't really faster than a stock ND2, and way less reliable.
In a straight line a 200whp turbo NB is going to be a lot faster than a stock ND2. Around a track it's going to depend on a lot more than just the motor.
Power to weight being equal the ND2 will be faster. I love my NA but the ND has the looks, comfort, and the suspension design is incredible. Gobs of grip. Lots of travel. ND2 absolutely stomps the S2000CR at autox which is an unattainable goal for a naturally aspirated Miata (AFAIK)
I'm exactly at that point where I'm done with my turbo NB and want an ND2 for these exact reasons. Just can't hold a candle to a sorted ND at the track.
Just $30k away...
OP have you driven/co driven a 200whp turbo na/nb just for real world comparison? No offense, but you should do that. Especially mid range torque is far better on a turbo 1.8.
Otherwise when I read your post, you're somewhat trying to get US to tell you: BUY THE ND2
I have driven it, too and it's an amazing car, especially for the guys without time/knowledge/will to modify an older car. It's just the easy route. When you had so much fun with it, chances are high, that you won't regret buying it.
Been saying it for years, don't drive and ND2 if you don't want to buy one. I still love the way a bone stock 90 A pkg drives, 99 Sport pkg, NC2/3 Club.. but the ND2 is just a better car in everyway. Far more comfortable, better daily driver, prettier, faster. I mean, heated seats!
The Club Bilsteins sucked so those went first on my 30AE. Jiggly, busy ride on the street and not enough low speed damping at full send on a freeway offramp.
My 30AE has Xida 300/150, 17x9's with 245/40 Conti ECS, seat lowering kit, steering wheel Xtndr, and Racing Beat muffler (for the growl). That's it and its perfect. More fun than my AP1 S2000, C6 ZO6, GT350 Mustang or various fast NA's and NB's.
I'm no stranger to modified NAs. My '93 L.E. ran the gamut from a Greddy non-intercooled turbo (later intercooled) to a 2-litre stroker with GT3071R. All iterations were loads of fun (are, since it's still going strong with its new owner). Ultimately, a 25 year old car with lots of modifications is not one that I could successfully drive across the continent at a moment's notice. I still did that but I frequently paid the price in terms of breakdowns in the middle of nowhere, niggling issues and assorted pains-in-the-***. When the 30AE was announced, it checked all the boxes for making a change and I put my car up for sale. Absolutely no regrets. Sure, it's not nearly as fast (although the ND2 is not exactly wanting for power in the way that a stock NA/NB is) but, like Emilio says, it's waaaay more comfortable, quiet and just as entertaining on a twisty back road. Best of all, it has rock-solid reliability and I can again travel long distances without an ounce of worry. Getting 30% better fuel mileage is a nice bonus as well.
If you do go this route, spend whatever extra you need to in order to get an ND2. The engine is far superior (not so much power as in zest, feel and those type of intangibles). I always found the ND1 disappointing in that respect. Lots of torque (relatively speaking, for a normally-aspirated mill) but it always felt a little, well, agricultural.
P.S. XIDAs go on this Spring, using the same Touring rates as Emilio. Can't wait.
I've owned my non-turbo '99 for nearly 11 years. I've tracked it, driven it 500 miles in a day, used it to transport my dual suspension mountain bike and even picked up a barbecue grill with it, and have done basically all the repair and minor mods on it myself. I've enjoyed it a lot. Still do, and have no immediate plans to sell it.
That said, the newer Miatas do car things so much better. They feel more solid, they're more comfortable, they handle better, they're faster, and they get better mileage. Anyone who tells you differently either hasn't tried the newer ones or is fighting a bias to justify their own car. Sometimes you like vintage for vintage's sake or because you like simplicity or lower price. NAs and NBs are great for that, but with values creeping up, NCs are fast becoming the performance/dollar Miata bargain, if they aren't already. The ND is more expensive, but it's really great - a bone stock one on an autocross type course made my FM-suspended NB feel like a tractor. And the newer Miatas also have an aftermarket to improve them...
To echo what DeerHunter wrote, ND1 to ND2 is a lot like NC1 to NC2. very different feel to drivetrain. ND1 was an "almost perfect" car. I liked mine but the low revving soft cut, economy car powerband was a wet blanket on an otherwise dynamic little car. ND2 motor, despite being just some tweaks and tuning, feel like a different beast. Very BMW like in its power delivery. Worth saving a bit longer to get the ND2 IMO.
Ahh yeah guys. It's bitter sweet for sure. I had an NA for a short period in my early 20's. And then obsessed over getting a clean NB for a while. I've had this one for five years now and I've hardly driven it between the repairs it's needed and me not having time for a project car sadly. I had big plans for it. I've got a garage with every tool you could want, quick jacks and all, but no free time to mess with it.
Hearing you all echo my thoughts, it definitely seals the deal. I'm in Colorado if anyone is interested. 03 Shinsen edition. #1202 of 1451 made. 160k miles. LSD. FM clutch and exhaust. A few small other pieces otherwise completely stock as I was getting her back to baseline before boost. Everything has been done within the last few hundred miles. Shop receipts for everything from Auto Spec in Austin, TX (Well known Miata shop down there). Oil pan is leaking and shocks are worn. Not really sure what she's worth in today's crazy market. I know i paid 2k to get a OEM matching hardtop (Kind of crazy I even found one, they made 1400 of these cars and the paint is not the same as the Mazdaspeed. So there's probably only a few hundred of these existing).
Do you guys have any hesitations with buying a used ND? Used prices seem so high buying new sadly seems to make more sense. And you never know how the car was treated. I can only imagine clutches and everything else are more expensive to replace than the older cars.
Been saying it for years, don't drive and ND2 if you don't want to buy one. I still love the way a bone stock 90 A pkg drives, 99 Sport pkg, NC2/3 Club.. but the ND2 is just a better car in everyway. Far more comfortable, better daily driver, prettier, faster. I mean, heated seats!
The Club Bilsteins sucked so those went first on my 30AE. Jiggly, busy ride on the street and not enough low speed damping at full send on a freeway offramp.
My 30AE has Xida 300/150, 17x9's with 245/40 Conti ECS, seat lowering kit, steering wheel Xtndr, and Racing Beat muffler (for the growl). That's it and its perfect. More fun than my AP1 S2000, C6 ZO6, GT350 Mustang or various fast NA's and NB's.
my .02
Yeah man I honestly couldn't believe how much more fun to drive it was. It legit made me feel kinda bad about my car. Suddenly it was way less cool. Had I never driven that I'd probably still be pretty happy modding my NB and going WOT everywhere without breaking the speed limit.
02-07-2022, 07:01 PM
So I drove an ND2..... Sell or Turbo my NB?
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